Comments on slideyfoot.com | bjj resources: History of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (BJJ)

Hi Slideyfoot, I'm Brazilian and a martial arts fa...

2009-02-16T20:25:00.000Z

Hi Slideyfoot, I'm Brazilian and a martial arts fan. Liked your blog very much, and I'll try to help you as you helped me a lot in my data gathering for a future documetary I'm doing about the roots of Brazilian fight. You'll be amazed how much stories I've heard. I'd like to make contact with you, my email is farkatt@digi.com.br

I'm in the process of making contact to do interviews with some major fighther/teacher from the past and relatives. Names like: Pedro Hemeterio, José Gomes and his brother Ivan Gomes, Jurandir Moura, Euclides Pereira (who defeated Carlson Gracie) Osmar Biuce, Hayashi Kawamura, Raimundo Teixeira and many others. These are all names from my past and I'l try to rescue his memories shadowed by the good work of the Gracies.

By the way, answering your concern in a comentary above, yes, judo is much more available and known in Brazil than even BJJ, every school has Judo classes from children to adults. And although BJJ is dominant among jiujitsu practicioners, it is a common knowledge that it's not the only "Jiu Jitsu" existant in Brazil.

Thanks for long comment, Matwork: always nice to s...

2009-01-28T13:48:30.919Z

Thanks for long comment, Matwork: always nice to see some research. :)

I refer to it as marketing (perhaps advertising would be a better term, though as ever that gets into semantics) rather than propaganda because Rorion's version of BJJ history is directly intended to amplify his father's role in developing the sport, generally at the expense of everyone else (judoka especially, which is presumably why there has been the long-standing attempt to claim Maeda came from 'jiu jitsu' rather than judo).

Propaganda, on the other hand, maliciously attempts to harm something else, rather than advertising, which is bigging up your own product. Its a fine line in Rorion's case, but I'd still go with advertising rather than propaganda, in the same way that you get advertising along the lines of "Tesco: cheaper than Asda by £#!" Still an unpleasant way to advertise, granted, but seems to be happening more and more (especially as they've relaxed the rules here in the UK, AFAIK).

I don't think judo has suffered as a result of Rorion's dubious view of the past: on the contrary, you could argue that judo has considerably benefitted from BJJ's success, as grappling now gets far more recognition than pre-UFC. Yes, the historical inaccuracies are irritating, but I strongly doubt they have had a detrimental effect on judo as a whole.

Not to mention that even within BJJ, the Rorion perspective is fairly controversial: e.g., there is plenty of respect for judo at the Roger Gracie Academy, which has long worked closely with Ray Stevens, who won an Olympic silver medal in judo. Gracies in Action is two decades old now, and things have changed in BJJ circles. Dave Camarillo's synthesis of judo and BJJ is another example, or the Ribeiro's obvious respect for judo - 7th dan Jin Iizumi teaches at his school, after all.

But yeah, semantics: if people prefer to see Rorion as a propagandist rather than a shrewd businessman, I don't deny there's an argument for that.

How is it that Rorion's dissemination of informati...

2009-01-28T00:23:00.000Z

How is it that Rorion's dissemination of information not propaganda? His Gracie in Action videos are full of glaring inaccuracies and even downright lies. For instance, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44wd7GXgep4, mentions that Masahiko Kimura is the greatest "jiu-jitsu" fighter of Japan. Kimura was a judoka. The same misinformation regarding Mitsuyo Maeda is common amongst BJJ circles. They claim without any documentation or references that Maeda learned some form of jujutsu when he was a boy. Some sources such as http://www.jiujitsuforums.com/jiujitsuhistory.php claim that Maeda learned Tenshin Shin'yo Ryu jujutsu. It seems that BJJ wants to establish a connection for BJJ from a jujutsu school. Maeda was initially trained in sumo as a boy, and then later trained at the Kodokan. And he also participated in catch-as-catch-can wrestling tournaments so it's not unlikely for him to have picked up some catch wrestling in his repertoire. I see sumo, Kodokan judo, and catch-as-catch-can wrestling, but no direct link to jujutsu. Kodokan judo itself in Jigoro Kano's words, transplanted the archaic koryu (meaning old school in Japanese) of Jujutsu styles. By synthesizing multiple styles and taking the best qualities of each, Kano formed Kodokan Judo, an all-round methodology of physical fitness, self-improvement, throws and takedown, pins, groundwork, submission holds, and even strikes (atemi-waza).
And I do find it interesting that BJJ sources on the history of Jujutsu in Japan (especially Gracie jiu-jitsu ones) claim that it's a several thousand year old art originating from India that was transmitted to China and then later Japan. Respected and learned historians (go look at the Cambridge History of Japan and other peer-mediates scholarly works) all agree that there are at least TWO aspects of Japanese culture that were entirely domestic and with little to no foreign influence. The folk religion of Shinto and jujutsu. Jujutsu existed as a Japanese form of combat whether armed or unarmed (something which many non-Japanese mistake jujutsu as simply a form of grappling) combat. Sumai, an ancestor of sumo was some of the premier fighting arts for the Japanese in their origins as a people. Jujutsu as a term was not even prevalent until the 17th century when the Sengoku Jidai period ended and the Tokugawa Shogunate placed a weapons ban on non-samurai. Terms such as yawara, koppo, kumiuchi, etc. were what these fighting arts referred to.
Chin Gempin, a Chinese martial artist in the early 17th century is often quoted as a Chinese link to koryu and gendai budo. However, there were already numerous jujutsu schools in practice in Japan at the time of Chin Gempin's arrival and while he may have taught the Japanese a form of Chin Na and Shuai Jiao, the roots of Judo (and BJJ's groundfighting) were already established.

Ah, so that was his name: I've heard the story abo...

2008-11-15T20:03:29.908Z

Ah, so that was his name: I've heard the story about the Ezekiel choke before, but didn't know the surname, so thanks for that. :D

I think the spelling of the guy's name is Ezequiel Paraguassu, judging by Google. Now that I've got the right surname, should help if I want to stick anything more about him under 'ezekiel' in the glossary.

I've heard that it was Rolls Gracie who brought in the triangle due to his judo training, but would be interested in seeing a source (though it sounds plausible enough).

As ever, comments are welcome, but ideally there would be accompanying links to evidence: in writing this summary I'm especially keen to find reputable sources, so any help with that much appreciated.

One has to note that BJJ owes several of its key t...

2008-11-15T04:54:00.000Z

One has to note that BJJ owes several of its key techniques from judo even as recently in the 1980's. Ude-garami (Kimura) came in the 1950's while sankaku jime (triangle choke) in the 1970's. The Ezekiel choke (Sode Guruma Jime) was introduced to BJJ after Ezekiel Paraguassu, a Brazilian judoka and Olympic competitor who utilized this choke effectively against several Gracie Barra members in 1989. Ude-garami, sode guruma jime, and sankaku jime have long been in judo randori (sparring) and even in shiai (tournament) before BJJ was conceptualized.

I'm not sure I'd call it propaganda so much as mar...

2008-11-01T13:32:32.693Z

I'm not sure I'd call it propaganda so much as marketing, particularly on Rorion's part. He has always had an aggressive style of promoting his business, which is why his version of events has become the best known, though it may not be the most accurate (to put it lightly).

That's one of the reasons I'm very much looking forward to Reila Gracie's book on her father Carlos getting translated into English: should be fascinating to see what perspective she takes on the early years of BJJ.

There's a snippet over on The Fightworks Podcast, in case anyone hasn't seen it yet.

I would also like to add to my previous comment th...

2008-10-31T19:32:00.000Z

I would also like to add to my previous comment that judo newaza does indeed have an methodical approach to groundfighting.
If you look at these videos of Tsunetare Oda (a strong proponent of newaza and now-banned joint locks), you can see that judo does indeed have groundwork.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tsunetane+oda&search_type=&aq=f

Or even in these tapes of Kosen judo that were released in the 1980's.
http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=kosen%20judo&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#

I'm not saying that judo newaza is the same as BJJ. BJJ is heavily focused on the ground as a competitive and combative art. Judo, unfortunately, has focused too much into sport competition as dictated by the International Judo Federation (Olympic rules) and newaza isn't given as much attention. Though, there have been superb Olympic judoka that used newaza in their matches like Yasuhiro Yamashita, Anton Geesink, and Hitoshi Saito.

BJJ deserves its status as one of the premier grou...

2008-10-31T19:25:00.000Z

BJJ deserves its status as one of the premier groundfighting arts. However, a lot of misinformation and propaganda has been passed around, especially towards judo. For instance, Osvaldo Alves trained under Isao Okano while in Japan. Okano was the 1964 Olympic gold medalist and was especially noted for his strong newaza. It's not far-fetched for Alves to have picked up a good amount of judo matwork from Okano and transmitted this back to Brazil, thus adding into BJJ's repertoire.

Oswaldo Fadda even stated in an interview that the only difference he saw between judo and BJJ was the rule set. And Fadda was no slouch himself and brought new dimensions into Jiu-jitsu Brasileiro with foot-locks, which surprised Gracie students when facing Fadda's disciples.

I like BJJ a lot, and it has a lot of great approaches and application to groundwork. But it's kinda insulting when there's concerted bias towards BJJ's roots to judo. With all due respect to Mr. Kid Peligro, but his book The Gracie Way is one of the most blatant pieces of spin on BJJ and judo. Like how he simply uses the phrase "book on positions" instead of saying it was from a judo book on the origin of the triangle choke.
"As a matter of fact, the "Triangle" was invented by one of his students, Sergio Dorileo, Sergio had been studying a Japanese book of positions and invented the Triangle."

Even the Onzuka brothers uses questionable information in their BJJ history. In their history of the Gracies, this statement caught my eye and it had no verification or sources to back it up:
"There were many who said that Kato was far better judoka technically than Kimura, although 30 kg less heavy and strong."
http://www.onzuka.com/graciehistory.html

Accounts from renowned and respected martial arts historians and practitioners like Donn Draeger, Isao Inokuma, etc. have all stated that Kimura was one of the most technically proficient judoka pre-Olympics. The Japanese Olympic team were even worried about a rumor that Kimura would compete in the 1964 Tokyo Olympic games as a testament to Kimura's skill (he would have been 46 if he had actually participated in the Olympics).
They also mention things like "Kato was Japan's #2 judoka" when mentioning his loss to Helio Gracie. #2?! What proof do they have of this? Can they back up that statement with some credible evidence? There were great judoka in the 1950's like Kenshiro Abe, Kyuzo Mifune (even as an old man he was a beast), Tokio Hirano, Yoshihiko Yoshimatsu (who beat Anton Geesink) etc. I've never read of Kato as a noteworthy judoka during the post-WWII period.

Another point I might add is that
that non-Gracie practitioners and pioneers of Brazilian Jiu-jitsu (whether direct or indirect) aren't getting as much exposure outside of Brazil as the Gracie's are. Even the Machados aren't getting their fair share. Men like Geraldo Flores, Monir Salomo, Yasuichi and Naoichi Ono (judo pioneers in Brazil and Yasuichi even choked Helio's brother Jorge and tied twice with Helio), Katsutoshi Naito, Sobei Tani, Ryuzo Ogawa (the founder of Kodokan judo in Brazil and was sent there as an official instructor) Takagi Saigo, and so many others aren't even mentioned much less even known to the greater Judo and BJJ community.

Josh: Thanks! It did take a while, but something I...

2008-08-31T11:01:30.288+01:00

Josh: Thanks! It did take a while, but something I enjoy doing anyway. Acts as a welcome distraction from the PhD. ;)

asfoetida: From what I've read, I'd agree that judo has been de-emphasised in BJJ history: also a complaint I've seen very often on judo forums, though as you mention, unfortunately threads which mention BJJ tend to devolve into unproductive BJJ vs Judo rants.

Hence why I've tried to be more objective in my summary, and make it clear that judo was the root, via Maeda (not jujitsu, as many BJJ histories seem to claim, circumventing judo). Its also why I wanted to present Kimura's perspective on the famous Helio fight from My Judo, to try and be more objective than just regurgitating the usual account in BJJ history books.

I haven't read much about judo's later influence, but that probably because I haven't spoken too much about BJJ competition, where the judo stand-up comes into it more. E.g., judo was arguably the deciding factor in various Xande Ribeiro vs Roger Gracie matches (both of whom have plenty of judo in their background), like the most recent clash at the Mundials.

I think you're right that the general ideas and philosophies of BJJ are very much based in judo: that's something I think Danaher brings out well in Mastering Jujitsu, when he talks about the importance of randori and the success through competition that brought judo to the fore originally.

Still, the great thing about writing something on a blog is that, unlike a book, its very easy to make additions and changes. I've read the Mehdi piece before, but hadn't thought of checking it out to include here: good suggestion, so will have another look through now.

As with most of my blog, this history will be a work in progress, so I'll be continuing to make changes as I get hold of new material. So, any further constructive suggestions (i.e., providing me with a reputable source, like asfoetida just did with the Global Training Report) are very welcome. :D

Nice work Slideyfoot! You must have put alot of ti...

2008-08-31T00:09:00.000+01:00

Nice work Slideyfoot! You must have put alot of time and hard work into writing that and it shows!

First off, thanks for this great article. I too t...

2008-08-30T06:11:00.000+01:00

First off, thanks for this great article. I too take great interest in studying the history of BJJ/grappling as a practitioner and have done my fair share of amateur researching as well. I have a couple comments based on conclusions I've drawn from my readings.

-In "the toughest man who ever lived" (a biography of maeda linked here: http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=26072&cat=&page=1 ) which, to be honest, i have less than 100% confidence in the accuracy of, it discusses maeda's childhood and such. His father was the village sumo champion, and maeda was an eager learner becoming the child and youth's sumo champion in the village as well. however he was not going to be large enough to be a sumo wrestler, so his father sent him to live with a friend in tokyo so he may train jiujitsu. it claims the style he trained was "tenshin shinyo-ryu", after kano had separated, and upon hearing kano was the best student of this style he pursued training with him instead. It claims he went to the Kodokan requesting to be a student "one year later", as in, one year after arriving in Tokyo.

I have seen reference to Maeda's childhood training in sumo in other contexts, and thus I trust that to be true. I also don't doubt that experience with sumo, a very versatile grappling art in it's own right, was quite helpful to maeda in his learnings of judo as well as his ease of adaptation to fights with more westernized styles.

Personally, I am extremely skeptical of the often quoted idea that in response to the dangers of no rules fighting maeda moved back to using his "jiujitsu techniques" in addition to judo techniques to attain victory. Judo, from it's genesis, involved many more techniques than are just legal in shiai. There are many examples of older judo texts which outline moves which are quite clearly against the Judo rules, such as ankle locks and kneebars. Furthermore Kano was very promotive and interested in other arts such as karate and aikido. I suspect it was his intention to preserve these more dangerous techniques for practice and careful randori but continue to exclude them from shiai (we also fail to recognize, these days, the "big deal" it would be to deal with a serious knee or foot injury at the beginnings of the 1900s -- at that time, it quite definitely may render you unable to support yourself or your family. I suspect the notion that he added more dangerous techniques back into judo is simply marketing copy to make BJJ seem more badass, especially when compared to judo (leading me into my next comment...)

-I also think it's generally underestimated, with your article being no exception, the continuing influence of Judo on BJJ after the gracie's had opened their schools. Brazil has the largest japanese population outside of japan even to this day! From wikipedia, it shows the following numbers:
1904-1913, 11,868
1914-1923 - 20,398
1924-1933 - 110,191
1945-1949 - 12 (i find this a bit confusing, i understand it was WW2 but like, 12? and they counted?)
1950-1954 - 5447
1955-1959 - 28,819

I have heard it said on judo forums that despite it's [bjj] immense popularity Judo is still more popular than BJJ in Brazil. I have zero way to verify this, but as I'm sure you found researching this judo forums can present themselves as vehemotly anti-bjj as bjj forums can be anti-judo. Nonetheless, many top students were documented to have practiced Judo both seriously and properly in addition to BJJ (not the least of which is Rolls, Rickson, Carlson Jr, Mario Sperry).

It is my estimation that the general ideas and philosophies the gracies had towards martial arts -- fighting by grappling, grappling with a significant emphasis on groundfighting, groundfighting with ultimate emphasis being submission, and important vale tudo applications, were extremely important, but were in fact mostly just a looking glass through wh

First off, thanks for this great article. I too t...

2008-08-30T06:11:00.000+01:00